Thundercat's Seduction Lair

Inadvertant Supplication?

Mastery, over at his "Philosophy of Being Cool" blog, wrote a post about the thin line between supplication and learning to attract women.  It goes as follows...

Mastery writes:
As we all know trying to figure out what a particular woman wants and then trying to be that person, is a form of supplication which we all despise.

But, isn't the seduction community itself all about trying to figure out what women (in general, of course) want us to be and then trying to be that person?

Aren't we all caught up this way in some huge act of global supplication to women?

You know, this reminds me of a time during high school when I asked my Priest if we Catholics (back when I still practiced) were idol worshipers, because we regarded the cross with such reverance.  His words to me were, of course, a resounding "No."  He said that it's not the cross we worship as a God or anything like that, rather, the cross serves as a reminder of who Jesus is and what he did.

In the same vein (though lacking in any religious significance), I'd have to answer "NO" to Mastery's question of global supplication.

The seduction community is about figuring out what women RESPOND to, as opposed to making ourselves more like the men they want.  This is about figuring out where we're lacking as men and FIXING THAT, because women will respond to a man who is complete and confident in himself.

See, we live in a society where many men grow up not knowing how to be, well, men!  We're raised by mothers and absentee fathers.  As much as Fight Club is a work of fiction, there's a bitterness there that every man can relate to, because we feel as though we've been neglected in our training.

By the same token, the Feminist movement has changed the way women are trained, for the worse.  Women are not being tought how to be women either, rather, everything has been reversed.  Women are being trained as men, and men are being trained as women, and everyone is getting fucked up because of it.

We're learning this stuff to restore balance in our lives.  To make stuff right.  That's not supplication, that's self-improvement.

And that's the difference.

The Top 10 Pick-Up Artist 2004

So last year, around this same time, I did a post about who I thought were the Top 10 Pick-Up Artists operating out there.  So I thought I'd do it again for this year because it was a really fun thing to do when I first started this blog back in '03.

Just like last year, the debate rages on about who the best PUA (Pick Up Artist) is.  And when it comes to ranking, thoughts are all over the place.  Some people will agree with my assessments and some won't, but it's all good.  In the end, these are just my opinions based on the experiences I've had this past year.  And just because certain people aren't on this list doesn't mean they're not any good, it just means I think someone else has more to offer or I haven't met them yet.  But to say that someone out there is "The Best" is hard to quantify because people always have their off days.  Overall, however, I know who I think has the goods.

Just a quick reminder:  Only people I've met personally are eligible for my list.  There could very well be many great PUAs out there that beat these guys out, but I have not met them and cannot verify their skills personally, so they are off my list for now.  Also, my rankings are not based on sheer skill alone, rather, they are based on consistency and what I have seen as far as practicing what they preach.  Also, in terms of the "quality" of the women out there, that is highly subject too, so I don't take the looks of the women they get into account, rather, just the number.  So keep that in mind as you read through this.

And now, without further ado, Thundercat's Second Annual Top 10 Pick-Up Artist List...

Simulated Dates?

Here's a news article that's pretty interesting. There's now a service in New York that will "Simulate" dates for you in order to figure out what you need to improve to attract women.

Shyness Can Be Deadly

There's a new article out from the UCLA front that talks about how stress induced by shyness can influence how easily you resist or succumb to disease, including viruses like HIV.

Crazy....

New Look At Polyamory

Nerve.com has an interesting article up about polyamory and the complications that arize from it.

No Link Between Sex & Money?

Someone sent me a link to an interesting article that says Economists have found no link between money and sex.

The Truth About Boyfriends

You know, I've been thinking about a few things lately (always a dangerous thing, I know). One of the things I've been thinking about are girls who have boyfriends, and even husbands. It's funny, because I don't know if you guys have noticed this in your experiences, but have you ever been conscious of how most girls have boyfriends who are really, really lame?

I mean, even if they're good looking, most boyfriends are pretty beta guys. They're kind of wimpy and AFC or what have you. They're very "safe." Same goes for most husbands. They're the responsible guys. The guys who make money, pay the bills, fix the car, take out the trash. They're the guys who are understanding, nurturing, caring, who take care of the kids and will cook the occasional meal. But they're often not the guys who can stir that unbridled passion within a woman. Maybe they once were, but for the most part, most guys I've met who were out with their girlfriends were pretty lame.

But the same is true for guys too. Lots of guys will often choose a girlfriend or wife based on how sweet and loving she is. How well she can cook, how loyal she will be, whether or not she's willing to clean and do laundary. Whether she's a good mother or not. She may not be the best looking girl in the world, but you know she'll take care of you and she'll be there when you need her. She's "safe."

But the guys most women will sleep with are the Bad Boys. The Players. The guys who are arrogant and cocky, and can stir that passion within them. They're the guys who are the great fucks, but the girl might not want to see for a steady relationship. They're the guy who she never has to see sick, or sad, or see the skid marks in his underwear, or his inner most thoughts and feelings. With him, the illusion of excitement and adventure is still alive. And by that same token, that goes for guys going after hot party chicks too. The only problem is that once someone gets into a relationship with this type, the reality comes crashing down and it's usually a dismal failure.

But this is an important thing to make a distinction about when it comes to pick-up: The men women have as boyfriends are not necessarilly the men they want to sleep with. And if a man comes along that can stir passion within them, they WILL cheat on their boyfriend/husband. So this means that the BF/Husband is not a real obstacle. Sure, the woman may LIKE the BF/Husband. She may even love him. But in the end, he's safe and boring, and no one can resist excitement and adventure.

This is where I think a lot of the major Players out there excel. They do not let this false barrier stop them from getting the girl. But by the same token, it may also sour them on Long Term Relationships because they know how people work in this regard, and know that if any guy comes along with a modicum of game, his girlfriend/wife will sleep with him! Kind of a bitter outlook, isn't it?

I don't know, I just think this topic is an interesting one, because for me personally, it puts a lot of stuff in perspective, especially when it comes to knowing how to control the underlying meaning of an interaction. For instance, say you like a girl who has a BF. You don't have to get her to break up with him or anything, you just have to present a juicy alternative so that she can have her cake and eat it too. Why make her choose? Just beta the BF, work on attracting her, and seduce her. Make her feel like it's not her fault that she's doing this (cheating), that you're just too charming or whatever.

Anyway, it's something to think about.

Being talkative

I found this post on mASF Advanced about Achieving the Talkative State Before Approaching:

Narcissisto writes:
What's the best way of getting into the talkative state before approaching? What's the best way of keeping that state, or getting back to it if you let someone change it?

I think this is one of the hardest things to do when it comes to pick-up. I call it being in "social mode." Most people get so complacent in their comfort zones, that it is just too hard for them to approach other people! But there are little tricks you can do to shift yourself out of your comfort zone and into social mode.

Often times, when I'm out to sarge with a wingman, they will instantly want to "do some sets" and start talking to girls right away. To me, this is very hard to do if I'm in my comfort zone, because the LAST thing I feel like doing is talking to girls. Most of my best nights have been when I've warmed-up properly and gotten into social mode BEFORE approaching girls. There are a few things that go into this:

1. Knowing what to talk about
2. Warming up with people who you do not have a vested outcome in mind.
3. Having High energy

I think these 3 things are important when getting into social mode. Knowing what to say can help you get the ball rolling on a lot of things, and saves your brain time and effort in thinking about how to get a conversation going.

When it comes to warming up with people who you do not have a vested outcome in mind, what I'm talking about here is namely -- Men and Ugs. People you have no interest in fucking. Because you divest yourself of an outcome with these people, it helps you to get the mouth moving and get your energy up before approaching the real targets.

Getting High energy is usually either the first or last thing you will do. Going into warm-ups with a high energy already will help you to engage other people. If your energy is down, simply getting into good conversations with strangers will help to pump it up, because you'll start to break out of your comfort zone.

I talk more about this in my book The Art of Approaching and will probably write an article about this topic soon, because I think it's really important to know how to get social in environments where you want to pick-up.

I'd also like to add that having a few drinks in you can help. Sad, but true. =)

The Most Important Attribute of a Pick-Up Artist

Tyler Durden has an interesting post up on mASF about what he thinks is the most important attribute to have as a pick-up artist. Of course, there are many important attributes to have, most of which have to be learned by most guys (hey, this is a subset of self-improvement after all), but I think Tyler makes some really good points in his post that should be addressed.

Deconstructing Swinggcat, Vol. II

A while back I wrote a post about an upcoming Newsletter of Swinggcat's that I thought was going to be really excellent. He recently sent it out and gave me permission to repost it here on the site, so I'm gonna do my usual thing and instead of just reposting it outright, I'm gonna break it down with my own thoughts on the subject.

Respect the Process...
Hey guys,

Lately, a lot of the questions many of you have been sending me relate to a specific issue - one that hits very close to home for me. The heart of this matter is less obvious to most men than an insect flying towards an ultraviolet bug zapper, thinking, “the light is so beautiful!”... zap!

For many, dating and attracting women is about the male ego at war in the singles scene trenches. I spent a lot of time coming from this place, deterring me from the massive success with women I desperately sought after.

The Male Ego War is quite a good metaphor in my opinion. It's very much about how most men in society rate their validation -- through the approval of women. By going out and looking to hook up, we put our egos on the line, hoping that we will get the validation we seek. We think "Oh, if a hot girl likes us, then we're not ugly, or bald, or fat, or anything bad! We're good the way we are! We're worth loving!" But when we don't get that, our Ego is crushed, and most men will descend into a pit of misery and self-loathing, all because some girl "had to go to the bathroom" and left us holding our wanker.

My big breakthrough - transforming me from an average Waldo into a rock star with women - came when I adopted a single mindset. But before I tell you what this mindset is, let's take a look at two categories of mindsets that can sabotage a man's success with women.

The first category relates to men believing that their lack of success with women is due to their own shortcomings. I get questions, for example, from guys asking if the reason why such-and-such girl doesn't like them is because they are bald, or short, or old, or gauche, or blessed with an unfunny wit, or as sexy as a hairy mole...or whatever. These emails break my heart because I spent many years coming from the same place. I think most of us to some extent have. Maybe it comes from some unfounded myth in our culture, disseminated by media, school, parents and friends, purporting: if someone is of perceived higher value than you, they are not allowed to be attracted to you. I don't know? But I do know one thing: the same type of women I once felt unworthy of, are now very attracted to me. I, furthermore, have short, bald, fat, broke friends who are constantly attracting beautiful, sophisticated, intelligent, wealthy women. Are you becoming a little suspicious of this cultural myth? Good!

Speaking as a bald, fat, broke guy, I can say this is pretty accurate. The idea of percieved social value is such a stupid one, because it doesn't exist. It's not a tangible thing that is grounded in reality. It's all about perception. I used to think that because I'm not an attractive guy, I'd never be able to get the kind of girl I wanted. But I've seen HUGE fat guys, REALLY ugly guys, and even MIDGETS, all of which could get really hot girls. And because of that, I came to the realization that most of the things that were holding me back were in my head, and in fact did not REALLY exist. In fact, the barriers I put up for myself were about as real as the percieved social value of the women I lusted after.

Anyway, the newsletter gets better...

The second category relates to men believing that their lack of success with women is due to something in their external environment. One mindset that fits into this category is the belief that certain venues are not only difficult but next to impossible to attract women in. I once had a mentor, for example, that told me that bars and nightclubs are unfeasible environments for a man to attract women, unless he is wealthy, famous, or model good looking. And that the vast majority of women dwelling in these venues are either gold diggers, party girls, drug addicts, or have a personality that rhymes with witch (Looking back, I now realize that the source of his bitterness towards women in bars was probably a result of his own social ineptitude - sad!).

He went on to tell me that a viable solution is to meet women in coffee shops and bookstores. This is great if you live in a place where bookstores are the happening place for attractive women to hang out. This, however, was not so for me. If I wanted to meet three or four attractive women, I would have to spend hours waiting. I suspect that I was not alone - I bet many other places in the world are similar. At night, however, I occasionally would join my friends at bars and nightclubs. These places were filled to the gills with attractive women. I would, unfortunately, remember my mentor's far from sage caveat: “It is next to impossible to attract women in bars.” And then sit there like a Waldo watching my very average looking friends ATTRACT these beautiful women. I know now that I was limiting my possibilities of meeting desirable women. The higher number of attractive women at a venue, the more possibilities you will have for attracting women you desire. It's not that bars and nightclubs are always the best places to meet women - there are exceptions. But to rule out environments full of attractive women - such as, bars and nightclubs - because of your own insecurities is to limit your own possibilities of ATTRACTING desirable women. Oh, by the way, many of the women who go to bars and nightclubs are neither gold diggers nor party girls nor drug addicts. Surprisingly, many are sophisticated, intelligent women.

This is the concept that really got to me when Swinggcat first told me about it. There's this idea that certain places are difficult to meet women in, or that certain women are unattainable, or that we have certain shortcomings. But if you step back and look at reality objectively, you realize that none of that exists in life. Life is neutral. Reality is what it is.

It's when the human mind becomes involved that things get screwy. I can remember walking into bars and clubs in college and thinking "How can anyone meet girls in these places?" The thing was, I was projecting a barrier into my view of reality that skewed my perception in such a way that I believed it was IMPOSSIBLE to pick-up in an environment such as that, when the truth was that it IS possible, I just didn't know HOW it was possible.

These barriers we project are a big deal, because they are the things that hold us back from reaching our goals. Yet, they do not exist. They can be taken down as easily as they are put up. This is what I find so fascinating about this observation from Swinggcat. That in a way, because we project these barriers, AND have the ability to take them down, we are, in effect, in control of our own environment. And because of that, there is no excuse not to succeed with our goals, no matter where we are or what they may be.

Notice with both mindset categories, a person projects an external barrier into the world that often times is nothing more than a figment of his imagination. These barriers are like a dark depressing cloud looming over him.

So this begs the question: What is the proper mindset to have?

The proper mindset is about:

1) Purging your self of worries both about your own shortcomings and possible barriers in the external environment.

2) Focusing on the process of emotions you are taking her through.

3) Focusing on controlling the META-FRAME: the underlying meaning of the interaction.

As I have said in the past: ATTRACTION is not how a woman judges you, it is what you do to her mind and body. The “body” part is the emotions you take her through; while the “mind” part is you controlling the underlying meaning of the interaction.

Basically, what I think Swingg is saying here is this: you need to get out of your head. You need to mentally step back and look at what your belief system is bringing to your situation and adjust it accordingly.

When your mindset (or concern) is nothing more than both getting women so emotionally charged they are wanting and reaching for you, and defining the META-FRAME as you being the one who is the PRIZE in the interaction, you will be well on your way to being a rock star with women.

On more than one occasion I have seen a guy doing fantastic with a woman - he was getting her so emotionally charged she was chasing him and he was defining the META-FRAME as him being the PRIZE in the interaction. But then something happened, such as, another guy came up and started talking to the woman he was attracting so well. Instead of keeping his composure, he stood their nervously, buckling completely. The women intuitively picked up on his fear and the attraction was lost - she no longer felt COMPELLED to CHASE him, and no longer saw him as the PRIZE. Her whole experience with this poor guy had now been recontextualized. Even though this woman was feeling attraction for this guy - I know she was because I saw it with my own eyes - she would soon rationalize to herself, for example, that she was never attracted to him in the first place. If he had tried to reinitiate conversation in a Waldo-esque way, she might have responded with something like: “You are a loser; I would never sleep with you in a million years.” But this would only be her rationalizing in retrospect. Had he triggered the right emotions in her again and taken back control of the META-FRAME, she might have slept with him. And afterwards, rationalized how wonderful he was.

Other guys coming in and interrupting your interactions with women is another barrier you project into your environment. Fact of the matter is, other guys are not that hard to deal with if you know how to handle them. That is why I think AMOG (Alpha Male Other Guy) tactics are important, because they allow you to handle these guys in a quick and effective way. Once you know how to Beta some dude who comes up and tries to steal your girl, that barrier that you thought was there before ceases to exist. It's that simple.

In my book I spell out in great detail the process for creating attraction between you and another woman. There are many other systems out there that claim to teach this. But what they suggest comes across so socially awkward it is kind of like trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole. Not the case with what you will learn from me. What I teach is comes from watching people who have exquisite social skills. So, you won't be doing anything that comes across as socially weird or awkward. I'll teach you how to develop your own personality in a way that will not only make you more attractive to women; it will make you more likable with each and every person you come into contact with. Take a giant step towards the life you deserve by checking out my book today:

http://www.realworldseduction.com

One big problem with many of the tactics out there, especially the ones that lack sufficient field testing, are that they ARE socially awkward. Part of being a good Pick-Up Artist is being able to consistently mimic the skills of a Natural Player with women. We have an advantage most Naturals don't because we understand what we're doing and why it works. But Naturals do what they do from the gut, so in that respect, their game is not socially awkward. A Natural will disregard most barries that other guys will usually project onto a location, woman, or situation, and just go in and do what they do best.

It's for this reason most Naturals are so successful. Disregarding your barriers and respecting the process of attraction and seduction will get you far with women.